Dec. 21, 2022

Wayne Kirkpatrick - Season 10 Finale

Wayne Kirkpatrick - Season 10 Finale

This. Friggin. Guy.

Wayne Kirkpatrick is one of THE hit songwriters of modern music history. You've heard his work sung by the likes of everyone from Garth Brooks and Eric Clapton to Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant, with a little Chris Gaines and Little Big Town thrown in just for fun.

From pop to CCM to country and even Broadway, the mega-hits just keep coming from an absolute legend with the pen, and we're extremely excited to bring you an XL finale celebrating Wayne's genius. Get ready for a lot of music, and a lot of wisdom from one of songwriting's great minds.

Thanks for listening and supporting, and thanks for a great tenth season!

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Producers: Andrea Konarzewski, Brad Callahan, Ari Marucci, Michael Conley, Peter Mark Campbell, David Steinberg, Randy Hodge, Chaz Bacus, Juan Lopez, Jason Arrowood, Howard Passey, Micah Murphy, and Tim Jahr

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Turn up the radio and sing all along. It's time for another great song. This is the Great Song Podcast. Seasons greetings and welcome to the season finale of the Great Song Podcast. I'm Rob Alley. I am J.P. Moser. And we're here to celebrate the greatest songs in modern music history. And lemme tell you, we're gonna talk about a lot of them today.

Oh man. We're gonna tell you what makes 'em great, why we think they're awesome, and why you should too J.P, how you doing today? Man? Man, I am doing fantastic. So as Rob mentioned, we go epic on finales, and I was telling him I did more research on the meet the band section than this one, than I've done on any of the other finales that we've ever done.

You know what, Rob play some clips of what? Who we're talking just place and clip. Okay. Here, let's do this. I'm gonna play you a few songs just to pop you, okay. And then we'll talk about why we're talking about these songs today. Let's start with a little Eric Clapton. How about a little change the world?[00:01:00]

It's me every time.

How about that organ? Hitting the one note,

get back and reach the stars.

That bay sounds good. Is that Nathan East? Nathan East. So

produced by Kenneth Babyface, Edmonds.[00:02:00]

That washy guitar. Come on. Okay. Okay. If that one didn't do it for ya. How about a little Amy Grant? How about a little good for me from the Heart and Motion album by Amy Grant? Ah, that hit so

dang it.

You like to dance? Listen to the music. We're just having a listening party today. Sing [00:03:00] was the Great Song Podcast Radio,

the ocean. This is a couple. Skate everybody. Couple skate.

Bro. What a chorus. Brave.

So,

okay, if you don't remember that one, then let's get into a little, maybe some Little Big Town. How about bringing on home by Little Big Town?[00:04:00]

I know what you need. Bring it on home. Let's go. Alright, one more. We gotta do this. Can't, can't sneak away from this. How about a little go West Young man by Michael W. Smith.

Hear this one. Voice[00:05:00]

gang. What do all these songs have in common? There is one person in common with all these songs and his name is Wayne Kirkpatrick. He wrote or co-wrote everything that we just played for you and so much more and like a jillion amazing more songs. He is literally, we're gonna talk about every one of them, every single 14 hour episode.

This episode will continue through 2026 continuous live streaming at Great Song Podcast com. Patrick Radio. There you go. Wayne Kirkpatrick Radio. Here are the great, you literally could and be do it. So happy. Yeah. Like it would be an amazing radio station. Just songs that he's written. Literally one of the most influential writers of our lifetimes.

Absolutely. And one of the guys that, like if you said, you know, you could [00:06:00] talk to your, the, the Mount Rushmore of your songwriters on the show. He would be on that for me. Absolutely. And like, and like, he's a, he's a musicians musician, a songwriters songwriter. Yeah. Like we save epic artists and episodes for finales and there's maybe no more epic writer than the person we're hanging out with.

Right. You are not kidding. I mean, in the, in the pop. And country and it's like pop country, CCM world of our lifetimes. He is one of the absolute most influential, you know, writers that there is. And so we get to sit with him for a nice, lengthy conversation at the end. And it is great dude, we were both of us hanging on every word.

He has such good things to say in his his perspective on writing and on the industry. All this stuff is amazing. So like if you are a songwriter of any kind, if you are a writer of any kind, if you think you might wanna be a writer of any kind, , you are gonna get to sit under the learning [00:07:00] tree today.

Cuz Wayne Kirkpatrick is on with us as we close out Season 10 of the Great Song Podcast, five years, 10 seasons, we've made it. And this will be the last episode. For this season. For this season. And yeah, so we are closing it out with an amazing thing. So we're gonna talk about, it's gonna be a little different flow cuz we're gonna talk about a ton of these songs and then we'll do our usual, you know, shenanigans as we go.

But a little bit on Wayne Kirkpatrick, just in general. He was born in Baton Rouge. He now lives in Nashville. He graduated from Baton Rouge Magnet High School in 1979. His younger brother, we'll talk about him some is Carrie Kirkpatrick, who is an American screenwriter and director and, Wayne is, he has done some artist stuff and we'll talk about that with him as well.

But his album, the Maple Room, which came out in what, 2000? 2001, something like that is one of just the incredible you know, [00:08:00] like singer songwriter albums. I just adore it. We didn't even get into yet, we didn't even touch on Garth Brooks, some of the like, faith Hill, Chris Gaines. Insane. Okay, so like just the list.

Seriously, let me just list a few, okay. His songs have been recorded by Little Big Town, faith Hill, Garth Brooks, Babyface, Amy Grant, rich Mullens, Joe Cocker, Kathy Mate, Martina McBride, Winona Judd, Tricia Yearwood, Bonnie Ray, Susan Ashton, Michael W. Smith, Jill Phillips, Michael Crawford, Peterik, Frampton, casting Crowns, and Eric Clapton, whose version of Kirkpatrick's changed the World, won the Grammy Award for the Song of the year.

In what year was that? 1998. 1997. Yes. Seven. Won Song of the Year, record of the Year and Best Male Pop, vocal Performance and a bunch of other that awards that year [00:09:00] for changed the world. It won most Played Radio Song of the year, record of the year most performed songs for motion pictures.

Most performed song from a film, best movie song nominated at the M T V Movie Awards Song of the Year, Nashville Music Award and Best Rediscovered Track in 1998. I don't even know what that means. And that one, that one I'll talk about a little bit. It was written by this trio of writers who we'll probably mention several times today, and that would be Wayne Kirkpatrick, Gordon Kennedy and Tommy Sims.

If, if you put these guys in a room and sometimes they don't even have to be in a room and we'll talk about that. The there's magic gonna happen. Yeah. It's going to happen. You're gonna come out with a, with a bomb song. It was originally recorded Change the World by one. Nona Judd in 1996. She has a version and it came out close to Clapton's version.

But Man Clapton's version has magic on it. Babyface. It's funny to think that Change the World is a cover. Yeah, it's Clapton. It's true. Yeah. The one that you would know. Yeah. But yeah Babyface produced it. Kenneth, Kenneth [00:10:00] Babyface base. Kenneth Babyface Edmonds. I don't know why I'm trying to talk so fast.

he produced it and it's just got that extra shine on it, dude. And it's clap. It's Clapton. So he is got these little bluesy, you know, licks and stuff in, and he had to get his stuff in. But that funny thing about change the world. , it was written, you could say, independently by those three writers. So for the movie Phenomenon.

Phenomenon, that's right. John Travolta, where he was like an angel or something. Mm-hmm. . No, that was Michael. That's Michael. Oh, but he's got Powers. Phenomen. He had Powers. Yes. He's, he's reaching out and he has some sort of magic powers. That's right. The, so the, the three guys, what ended up being the song they never worked on, They, it was like they all three worked on it independently.

Tommy Sims had a title and a court progression and kind of a melody. He sent it to Wayne, who wrote the chorus, and most of what became the second verse. And later Gordon Kennedy got it and wrote the first verse and the line that was missing from the second verse, he made the demo and that found its way to Eric Clapton and then it, it, you know, exploded as one of Clapton's biggest songs.

Absolutely. I mean and especially of his [00:11:00] later career. Yeah, it's nineties Clapton, it's bigger. The biggest song maybe tears into Heaven, probably maybe bigger, maybe, I don't know. But anyway, but his, like, you know, of his later hits definitely and probably the, one of the biggest hits since his very earliest hits.

Yeah. Like, you know, there was kind of a middle thing where people kind of slept on Clapton as far as like huge hits. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then later he made this huge come. Where do you want to go? We got a million. I gotta, let's start. I know this is early to do meet the band. Nah, but I think this will take us places.

Yeah. So let's play the jingle. Meet the band. I'm gonna tell you how I'm gonna meet the band section. Okay. Hey, let's meet the band. It's mama's.

All right. So I can't pick one tuned, so I'm gonna assemble the best band of Wayne Tracks, okay. That he's written. All right, so these are musicians that played on Wayne's. [00:12:00] Tracks. Okay, so here we go. So this is gonna be kind of lengthier, but not over. Overlook stinking All-Star Band. This is gonna be the All-Star band.

Yeah. Why don't you tell us how this, how this list came together. Tell us what you did to come up with this. So I was like, I, I need, I don't know how to do meet the band. And then I just started listening to stuff that he's written and I'm like, holy cow. And when we get to the drummer section, I'm gonna go deep on what took so long.

Okay. So, but here we go. So let's start, I mean, here's how deep we're going. We're going best Dobro Jerry Douglas. You might know him from this little tune called Boondocks. Yep. By Little Big Town. Good call on the Dobro. Jerry Douglas has done stuff with Dolly part and Garth Brooks. Kemo. James Taylor. My favorite name, drop of the whole Jerry Douglas repertoire would be Susan Ashton.

There you go. And Eric Clapton. I want do stuff with me. I'm gonna jump ahead to 2 23 just for the solo

who[00:13:00]

Smoke. Thank you, Jerry. Wow. Thank you Jerry. Not to be confused with Mongo Jerry. Exactly. , exactly. On percussion, that's, yep. We're going percussionist. Yeah. Sheila e. Okay. On Baby Faces version of Change the World. All right. 1997, M T V Live. I'm just gonna play a little bit of it. Yeah. Just, but if you go to minute 5 41, if you're watching at home, yes.

I watched all up to 5 41. We'll just play a little bit, but whatever. She, here's some breaks and she's doing some little stuff around. It's mainly clapping you here in the back and not much of her, but at 5 41, she throws her shaker in the air on video. So I don't know why I picked the section where she actually does it, but anyway, on synth base.

The four mentioned Tommy Sims. I'm [00:14:00] going synth bass. Okay. Because if we're going Michael W. Smith era, wait for it.

A, so Tommy Sims also co-writer on Change the World Based with Bonnie Ray, Robert Randolph, Israel Help Johnny Lang. I mean, he's played, try to pick a powerhouse from a different genre. Like he's played with all different kinds of genres. Yeah. So Tommy Sims on piano. I'm going say you'll be mine from Amy Grant because Okay.

He does all the piano, all the keyboard, all the bass, everything. Guy named Keith Thomas does everything except for drums on this whole thing. Wow. And it's drum programming. He's done stuff with 98 degrees. Vanessa Williams, he does the keyboard part on Save the Best for Last. Oh really? So, [00:15:00] yeah, so that's awesome.

Fiddle. Fiddle. Let's go. Aubrey Haney on. I Want A Cowboy by Reba Reba Ma. I didn't even name her. I didn't even name Reba. My favorite fiddle.

I like the song. I want a cowboy. You know, I want a cowboy.

So, yeah, Wayne wrote this. I Want a Cowboy by Reba. Chart it pretty well. Every Haney nasty on fiddle nasty. Okay, this next one's one of my favorites. Hammer, dulcimer, acoustic melodica, mandolin, acoustic himself. Okay. Wayne does all of this. Yeah. On this song, which I love, you know, simplified by Wes King.

Dude, I'm so glad you said this. I love this song. I freaking love this song. He played all that on this track. Everything dude on this track. Come on Wayne. [00:16:00] He is the acoustic section. I did not know that Wayne wrote this song until doing research. Yes. And I love this song. Let's listen to a little bit of the song I was gonna say, and I wanna jump to the solo section.

You can hear the light prototype for boondocks, you know, and for, for like that Little Big Town vibe. Absolutely. This week's going, kill me now. This is the song I've heard, rumor legend, that this song is about Bilbo baggages from Lord of the Rings . I've never even, I thought if I had known that, that Wayne wrote this before we started, I would've asked him.

That was the story I heard back in the day. We're gonna listen to a minute of this song because it's so good. Oh, it's so good. I'm gonna turn it up.

He likes that. He likes that flat three chord. He does. He'll bring It's good. And I keep bring Great chorus guys. Get ready. Huh? [00:17:00] Five minor.

Slow.

Okay. I wanna hear the solo section on this because this is all Wayne right here,

the way he ends this section.

Yeah. Freaking love that, bro. Yes, look, that makes me so happy to learn that. That was Wayne Kirk package. Dude. [00:18:00] Well done Wayne. Yeah. Okay. Electric guitar. You know, I'm going Dan Huff, but I'm like, which Dan Huff song am I gonna do? ? So I was trying to not do a hit because I wanted to go deep, Dan Huff.

Okay. But so I was gonna do Emily, but then, I mean, you gotta do, if you're gonna do a freaking guitar solo, come on. It's gotta be this one. Let's freaking place in this world. It's gotta be this one. Wayne Kirk. Pat, are you serious?

What is that progression? Oh, dang. Let's freaking end it with something. Track this up, kids.

Whoa. Yes. And the heavens open. Dang it. Goodness gracious. Dang it. Best [00:19:00] background vocal. I'm going cross of gold Minute 1 35. Why? Because it's freaking butterfly kisses guy. Bob Carlisle. Okay,

bro. What a progression. That's a Genesis way Soul. What y'all, that's very Turn it on again, which is awesome. I love it so much. Cross. So it's him, a guy named Greg Barnhill and a guy named Joey. Jeff doing the background vocals. But yeah. Butterfly kisses guy Bob Carlisle. All right, Carlisle. Okay. I'm gonna pause for a minute because I'm gonna tell you what took me so long.

Okay. So there's, and I could've gone tons of different, I could've picked tons of baselines by Tommy Sims. You know, I could've done tons of guitar solos by Dan Huff. Sure. Which I listened through. But the stuff that took me the longest was the drums. Okay. Because think about, it's all gonna sound similar in the Michael W.

Smith stuff. Yeah. All this, that's. Amy Grant, that's all gonna be similar. [00:20:00] Country drums are pretty much country drums. Yeah. So I'm like, no, I want something. So here's all the albums I listen through. Cause I'm a nerd. I listen through all of like two or three Cindy Morgan projects. Okay. Two or three Restless Heart things that he was on.

I was like, oh, that'll be good because it'll be singing Drummer Uhhuh, fallen by Tate. Peterik Frampton. Jodi Messina. Delicious surprise. Okay. Here's where I landed that I thought this is gonna do it is I loved candy coated water drops by plumb. Okay. So it's a, here's a throwback to you. CCM Kids Plum had an album called Candy Coated Water Drops that I loved.

And I was like, who played drums on this? Yeah. And I found out it's a loop. So it's a ger machine, so I can't count that. Yeah. So I'm like, ah. So in 2010 they redid. They redid some plumb stuff and they brought in a live drummer. Okay. And played on my favorite song, which is called God Shaped Hole. Oh yeah.

I loved this song. And I've like, that's kind of cool. That would work. But it's not live drummer. [00:21:00] Okay. But for this one project in 2010, did he write it? Did he write God shaped Hole? So he, he wrote, co-wrote, he co-wrote Wow. With plum stuff on it. It's crazy. Yeah.

So anyway, it's not that this is fancy, there's, but it's that they brought in a live drummer to double over what was my favorite. Okay. One of my favorite loops. That's awesome. And the drums sound good. They sound great. They sound good. And I listened. It may not sound that great on its own, but if you go back and you compare just listening to drums, It's, it's, it's, it's amazing.

Yeah. Okay. So anyway, so I landed on Ben Phillips. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. It's Ben Phillips and then Ben Phillips. We can talk about rhythm guitar. I mean, I wanna play a little bit of, lead me on somewhere in there. So we'll get there. Mixing and mastering. He the best. Mixing and mastering. I'm gonna give credit to George Massenburg because he did lost in you with for Chris Gaines.

Okay. Because how do you make a song [00:22:00] not sound like Garth? Yeah. Okay. That is Garth. Okay. So I'm giving mis mixing and mastering credit to the guy that did that project, which George Massenburg, he just dealt with Earth, wind and Fire. Billy Joel, James Taylor Legend. So, okay, there you go. You just, you just dropped a, a lightning rod of a name.

Okay. That we need to talk about for a minute. And that's do, it's Chris Gaines. Let's do it. Right. So, okay. So for the story of Chris Gaines, I'm sure we talked about this in our Garth Brooks episode a little bit, maybe. But that was episode two of this show, season one, episode two. So for those who may have forgotten or or may have forgotten, , go back to Jack and Diane like three weeks ago.

So the Chris Gaines project was a Garth Brooks alter ego type project. It was the Sasha Fierce, if you will. The Ziggy Star does. There it is. And Garth Brooks decided, you know what, I'm gonna freaking do that. And. The idea, as I understand it, it was supposed to end up with a movie and everything that was supposed to [00:23:00] be, they did a VH1 behind the music on Chris Gaines.

Like I forgot all about that. Okay. So they kind of go through his career and, and he was like a rockstar. And the whole thing was Garth was supposed to play him in the movie and everything, and there was this album release and it was Chris Gain's greatest hits. And so he did like the the emo spider-Man three haircut the eyeliner and, you know, dressed in black and did like a soul patch.

You know, and when you know it's Garth, it makes sense. Like when you look at him, you're like, okay, that's Garth. Yeah. He kind of went for like the, the sunken cheeks, Uhhuh, Zoolander look almost, you know what I mean? And so they, they did everything they could to kind of, you know, give him, give him some edge.

Now my feeling. Yeah. By the way, huge flop. Biggest, biggest flop of Garth's career. Absolutely. By far. Everything he does touch turn to gold except for that. Yeah. In my mind. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so it was a huge flop. Now I loved it cuz it was something different and whatever, but like, people were like, I don't want this from Garth Brooks, I guess.

Yeah. [00:24:00] I I think ultimately the, maybe the reason for the failure is that there was a there was a disconnect between the vision and the product because the vision was he was supposed to be a rockstar. Yeah. And if you, if you look at the, even the album, which by the way, we can't, we can't play you really, cuz it doesn't stream.

Mm-hmm. . And I forgot to bring my cd. If I find my CD I'll, it's on YouTube. Guess we could play a little of that. Is it? Mm-hmm. , that one song. Lost in you is mm-hmm. . Okay. That's the only one. Okay. So yeah, let me, let me, lemme pull a little bit of it. Pull a little bit of it in because the imagery is that of a rockstar.

You would've thought he was Tommy Lee. Yeah, right. It was, it was scantily dressed girls and it was very edgy and everything about it was rock and roll and drugs and, you know, whatever. Right. Or I should say vice, I don't know it was specifically drugs, but then the music that you get doesn't match that image.

Yeah. None of it really. Approaches rock and [00:25:00] roll. Mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? No. Especially not to that what they were portraying. Yeah. Right. Okay. So here Is Lost In You by Chris Gaines, which Wayne Kirkpatrick wrote mm-hmm. . And it sounds very, sounds good. I mean, it sounds very like, yeah, this is a Wayne Kirkpatrick song, right?

Mm-hmm. , and of course this is more of like a ballad, you know this more so you can go find this out. The cars sound good. Perfect. Mastering and mixing. Thank you, George. Yeah. . But it's not Garth, right? I mean, it is Garth, but it's not what you expect of Garth. Yeah. So it's a amazing song. And this the this chorus, I mean, you hear Wayne think about this, it's.

Ah,

bro. Come on. It's so good.

That's like Casey and Jojo. [00:26:00] That's not rock and roll. Yeah.

Lost.

And, you know, and Garth performs the songs well. Like everything. I really love the album. I just think that the image they were trying to portray is not what they recorded on wax. It's not, it's not rock and roll. Yeah. It's not, it's acoustic pop. Yeah. Like, kind of. Yeah. It's pop for sure. It's not rock roll, but it's not rock and roll.

And so I, I either think they should have portrayed the Chris Gaines character differently. Yeah. Or, or edged up or made a rock. The album made a true rock album. Yeah. Anyway, we digress, but not really. Instead of that acoustic riff like that, have Dan Huff come play the riff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

So anyway, but he's got, he's got a couple of songs Wayne did on that Chris Gaines project, and he has a couple more that Garth just recorded as Garth. Mm-hmm. One of them being a song that we'll talk to him about that. It was one of my favorite answers of his that he gives us. Yeah. The the song and [00:27:00] it's also on his album, the Maple Room, it's called Wrapped Up in You.

Mm-hmm. . And but he also had lost in you on that one. He had one of my favorites. Is it Don't Matter to the Sun? Yeah. On that Chris Gaines album. That song is incredible. With a capital letter bowl . Just such a great song. I'm gonna cover that song at some point. So dog on it. I'm gonna, okay. I'm gonna pull out another song of his that's kind of obscure.

I know, I know you will know it. But there's triple reasons for me to love it. I did not realize that Wayne wrote until doing research. I freaking love this song. Let's go. With a little shelter by Jaci Velasquez from her first album, heavenly Place. I love this song, . I always have, and I triple love it.

Now that I know Wayne wrote it, because the other huge reason that I love this song, okay, first of all, it's Jaci. He was awesome. [00:28:00] Melody, chords, everything about this song I love. Got some nice little jazz elements in it, right? Okay. It's a duet. I don't you remember this. So the second verse, okay, the second verse.

Have you ever thought about who this? All right, listen to who this is on the second verse.

How the, how the heart can change when you set your holy, come on. You got it. That is none other than Generation Radio's. Chris Rodriguez, shut up. Yeah, that's Chris Rodriguez. That's awesome. So obviously he's playing those guitar part. Yeah. And so I, I kind of always assumed that he, because I know he did a lot of production on that album, I kind of always assumed that he had written that song.

But it's, Wayne, Wayne wrote it and he may have, they may have co-written it, I can't remember. But Wayne's on it for sure. I sticking love that song. Kind of a, kind of a deep cut for me. Yeah. I love that song. Sometimes something done. But when it comes to, it's almost hard to even [00:29:00] talk about Michael W.

Smith and Amy Grant with Wayne because he wrote so much Yeah. Of their early stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And co and co-wrote so much of their early stuff. So it's, it's literally like, so, okay, let, let me go through just a few albums. Lemme just mention a few of these albums. Okay. Michael W. Smith go West Young Man.

He co-wrote 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 of the 10 songs on Go West Young Man. That's, we talked to him about seed, the so on that. Yeah, love crusades a, a banger as well too. Yeah, man. Good. He wrote, and I forgot I, as I was looking to this, I didn't do it on the very beginning one, but I started looking up just, just in the CCM world, the impact of these albums.

Okay. And I'm sure Go West Young Man is on this list, but I'm not sure where. But then also, okay, Michael W. Smith changed your world, which is like a lot of people say this is maybe his, his best album. It is the number 45 CCM album of all time according to CC m Magazine. And Wayne co-wrote 1, [00:30:00] 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 songs of, of the 11 on there.

Right? Okay. Then you have Michael w Smith's album, the Big Picture, which is an earlier one 1986. This is the number 21 CCM album of all time. And Wayne Kirkpatrick co-wrote every track except the Hidden Track. So 10 of 11. So I, you know what I'm saying? Like this is the impact of Don't Stop, don't stop on Michael W.

Smith. You gotta do I do. I cuz it's got secret ambition. Play a little secret ambition. All right. Little secret ambition here. Nobody knew. His secret ambition knew.

I mean, the, the impact of Wayne Kirkpatrick's writing, is it literally uncharitable? Okay. Let's go to Amy Grant for a second. Absolutely. Let's talk hard in motion. Yes. Which is the number 30 CCM album of all time. He, we didn't even play every heartbeat from [00:31:00] there. We played. Yeah, we played every heartbeat.

Good for me. Stinking good for me. That's, yeah. We didn't play every heartbeat. Heartbeat. Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on.

I have a hot take on this song, by the way. We'll get there. Let's let this one sit for a minute. There are fewer. Feel good. I mean, there are few more feel good songs on the earth than this.

How about that synth base reaffirm that you'll find?

That snare sound too.

Her vocals sound so good.

Something that [00:32:00] blew my mind about this song couple years ago when I realized belong to you, that the chorus doesn't start on the one that's the first chord. Yeah, it's a six minor. Yeah. My whole life I've heard the song as a one over that Every heartbeat. It's a six minor chord at the beginning. It shifted my entire world.

I was like, do I know anything at all? . And then, okay, lead me on by Amy Grant. Ah, yes. Is play okay? Play? I'm gonna be picky on this. Yeah. Play the live version. Oh, Tom, live again. Amy Grant live version. If you can, there'll be some applause at the beginning. Yes. Yeah, so it's a little bit faster. Okay. But Chris Rodriguez plays on this one.

Dan Huff plays on the original. Oh, it's so good. This is Lead me on just a little thicker, little faster. Yeah.[00:33:00]

So the album. Studio version of this came from Lead Me On is the number one CCM album of all time, according to CCM magazine. And Wayne has, I believe, three cuts on that, including the title track,

which would be this Lead Me on,

I'm not even gonna let her sing Cut her off. I said, I'm not even gonna let her sing the Time's Signature Chain. It's like six eight, part four four right there. Yeah. So good. And then you had Amy's album behind the Eyes, which is the number four 44 CCM album of all time. He has six cuts on that. I know we're gonna have Amy on and [00:34:00] we'll talk about some of her stuff, but the night she recorded the studio version of Lead Me On, she went into labor.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Do you know something? I don't know. Did you just give a spoiler alert? No, we'll get her sometime. . Okay. All right. So the guy is everywhere. Like seriously, there's not, it, it literally can't be overstated. His impact on a certain pockets of, right. I mean, we talked about we could cover this for hours, we could literally cover this man for hours.

But mostly we're gonna let him talk. Yeah. You know, for a bit. I do wanna play stump the genius before we, oh gosh. We haven't even, okay. Alright. Stump the genius real quick. Oh man. I can't wait. I'm so excited. Stump the genius. Stump the genius. Stump the genius. It's time to stop the genius. Take your part.

I take your part. All right. We could have got, we've done done tons of music clips, so we're gonna do name this famous Wayne. Okay. Okay. Famous Wayne. All right, so let's famous Wayne. Let's do 40 seconds again. I think we did 45. What did we do for the last thing we did? We did, yeah, like 40 something that Andy's We [00:35:00] did 40.

Yeah, we did 40. And you did it in 27 or 23, something like that. Right? I got five Waynes. Okay. Five Waynes. This may be a little tougher than Andy's. You think so? I don't know. All right. We'll see. So let's, I wanna challenge, let's do it in 30 seconds. Do 35. It's the last one of the second five. Okay. 35 seconds.

Last one of the season. Last one of the season. A real challenge. Oh man. I gotta get my, let me, let me look through the names real quick. Well, I make my 80%, let's see. Lemme make sure I got some good clues. All right. . Okay. I think I can get through these. Okay, here we go. Okay, ready? 3, 2, 1, go. Okay. Hockey player.

The great one. Number 99. Okay. Nerdy on or Ned on Jurassic Park. Newman. Oh yeah. In Seinfeld. Toy story. Wayne. Ned. Wayne. Wayne. New. New. New. Wayne. Oh. Crap. No, no, no, no, no. Come back to You're running time. I'll come back. Singer. Entertainer. Mr. Las Vegas. Okay. Newton? Yeah. Best friends with Garth Algar Swing.

Wayne Campbell. Campbell okay. This is his last name. Cowboy Pilgrim Tru Grit. Rooster Cogburn. Wayne is his last name. Cowboy Pilgrim Trigger. Oh, John Wayne. John Wayne. John Wayne. Okay. Back to Ned [00:36:00] Jurassic Park. It's Wayne not day, but Oh gosh, Wayne, I lost it. I was trying to, lemme see if I can do it without pressure.

Lemme see if I can do it without time pressure. Okay. I, I was thinking Wayne. Ned, it's Dennis. Ned. It's Ned. The clue I would've given you would've been the crystal way to do it. Would've been not day, but Yeah. Oh, yes. Wayne Knight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. No, I wasn't, I I blanked on it. I blanked on it. Oh, okay.

Anyway. Well, we got real close. 80%. 80%. We give him the ring for that. I need to go back and tally unless somebody listening wants to do it. That was so weird. I, I was thinking Jurassic Park. And did you, I think I called him nerdy the first time. I'm mean say n nerdy. Yeah. In my head. But I was like thinking through and I was like, Jurassic Park, like, and I said Nerdy.

Yeah. I inverted his name, his initials. Sorry if I threw you off there, but he was nerdy. He was, yeah. I think that was maybe a play like on his name that, that he was supposed to be like, you get like Dotson. Dotson. We got Dotson here. , nobody cares. Look, looking at that character, you, you would've definitely known that he got made fun of by being called Nerdy.[00:37:00]

Absolutely. Right. Like you. That's good. You know what I'm saying? In school, definitely. That character got called nerdy. Nerdy, nerdy, you didn't say the magic word, , which probably shaped him into the jerk that he became in Jurassic Park. Yeah. Like being bullied. Dude, that's the worst dinosaur killing of all is his

Delasau fits in his eyes. Oh, that's the worst. Yeah. Well, you knew that dinosaur stick Stupid. Wow. Now I wonder you're extinct running over when I come back here. Yeah. My wife loves Jurassic Park. Del Laas. Sos. How about J.P with the archeological knowledge coming out today? Kayla, thank you for listening to this.

I'll tell you, there's a Jurassic Park thing if you listen all the way through it. There you go. That's right. All right. I think that's, that's all I'm going to say. We'll let Wayne talk about it because we didn't. Okay, so here, here's what else I will say before we introduce Wayne. Not only has he blown up the universe with his pop country and CCM songwriting, but he has also blown up Broadway.

Yeah. He and his brother Carrie, who will talk about, they co-wrote the Broadway musical, something Rotten. And it's been very [00:38:00] successful and done very well. And then we will talk to him about the saga, the absolute saga that is and is still, is still happening. The Mrs. Doubtfire musical fascinating story on that terrible story.

But, you know, there's some light shining in all over the place. But let me just reiterate again, if, if you want to grow in your appreciation for songwriting or if you want to grow better as a songwriter, Listen to this, man. Okay. He's got, he's got things to say that will inspire. Yeah. Everybody, you know, kind of any kind of creative he's gonna get in your head a little bit and, and, and talk to you.

So really amazing for this. I know like some people go, who is Wayne Kirkpatrick? Because you don't know the name because he's done a lot of stuff behind the scenes. Whoa. I just realized we have not talked about the Maple Room. We're start over. Oh yeah, we gotta game on. We gotta talk about the Maple Room.

Hold on. Let me just pull this up and we'll talk about this for just a minute. Holy cow. Cannot not talk about, so this is Wayne's solo album. Play a little. [00:39:00] I won't forget you. You gotta start with just a little bit of it. So here's, I won't forget you. This is track eight.

This album is so good. Lovely to rest. It is comfort music for me. Me too. It's like mashed potatoes, . I don't mean that in any way other than it's comfort food for my soul. That's his voice. Now, you've probably heard it on background and some of the stuff that we've listened to, but that's what Wayne actually sounds like.

Yeah, dude. These opening notes, like when I turn this on and this is, this is the opening song, it's me again. Okay. Yeah. I just know. I'm gonna feel better in a few minutes, even if I feel great, I'm gonna Okay. Who does he remind you of vocally? If you were gonna, I mean, [00:40:00] to delivery, I'll say West King gets pretty close.

Similar, yeah. Right. He's very similar to West King. He's very similar to Clay Cross for me, and he's very similar with his breathiness on the slower stuff to Christopher Cross. Oh, sure. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is, it's me again. Let me get hit this chorus just to hear these background vocals. Hold on.

His, his background vocals are greater than the sum of their parts, like, and then you get this, this Yaya section, which is just The Beatles. Couldn't have done it any better.[00:41:00]

And then since this is a, that's not new age, this is a cool song, dude.

And this has a thing in it that I love that you never get to hear because it doesn't, there's not much call for it ever, but it gives this perfect addition to this. There's a string part in here coming in later that's gonna play a major seven over a minor chord, and oh, it's so good.

You know, he spent some time recording vocals on this album. Yeah, he did all the layering. Find this thing builds up. Let me just [00:42:00] play this string thing I'm talking about.

We're in a different key now. Here comes that tension, bro. Think they do it again. Come on. That's a, that's a minor major. Seven chord. That's fantastic. Let's go. Hanging by thread is one of the most. Heart wrenching songs, like this is, let me just play the chorus, but listen to this.

Come on. It's so tender. It's so heartfelt. Geez.[00:43:00]

This is the way, this song is the way every person should feel about their person, . You know what I mean?

This lyric that can feel you. Stop everything. Stop everything. We're. This just became an, an episode on that line. Okay. That line could have launched this podcast . Right. In the same way that ma'am I am tonight launched this Right. Launched this show. In the same way this baseball glove is good. Yeah.

Likes there's a kind of emptiness that can fill you. Yeah. This whole song is full of lyrics that brilliant Uhhuh , this whole song is chocked full of those kind of lyrics. Yeah. Listen, just, but just listen to this chorus. But then stop what you're doing later and listen to this song with you here, baby.

I'm Strong.[00:44:00]

You may have heard Nickel Creek's version of this. I think it was on their first album, their big breakout album. It's also brilliant

Vocals are so pure, dude, so pure and, and the Nickel Creek version is also fantastic. There's a, a melody change. We get to talk to Wayne about his, his takes on that kind of stuff. There's so much good stuff on this. So wrapped up, up in you, which we've mentioned that Garth covered. Here's this.

You might remember this from the Dr. Pepper commercials in the early two thousands. I had Garth in them,

can't you? One of the, one of the most, my favorite lyrics on this album is in this song and it's, it's, how do I [00:45:00]love you? Count the ways. There's not a number high enough to end this phrase. Yeah, that's, come on. That's just brilliant. Anyway, kiss the cheek of the moon. Blame on your, this whole, like this album is be real y Yeah.

So I could not go any further without talking about it. We can go on and we can talk to Wayne, and we're gonna talk about the Maple Room. We're gonna talk about Mrs. Doubtfire. We're gonna talk about his beef with Garth Brooks, and we're gonna talk about the song that he won't let Garth Brooks release.

How's that for a teaser? ? Okay, . How's that for a teaser? Wayne Kirkpatrick is our guest today on the Great Song Podcast, and I can't believe it. What a way to finish out season 10 of the greatest music podcast ever. in history. Thank you guys for hanging with us for 10 seasons, man. Let's go talk to Wayne Kirkpatrick.

Join us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Great Song Podcast. You can support the show by going to patreon.com/ Great Song Podcast. If you wanna support us there, we'll do everything that we can to make you feel good about that decision. Let's go talk to Wayne [00:46:00] freaking Kirkpatrick and we'll be back at the end.

To tuck you in, this is the Great Song Podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, as promised, I almost say this with a reverence. We are talking to Wayne Kirkpatrick. Oh my goodness. On the Great Song Podcast. Wayne, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, great to be here. That's uh, Wayne Kirkpatrick brother of Carrie Kirkpatrick.

That's right. Which I know is why you guys came here. I mean he's basically, if we're looking at your Wiki bio, it's like your third thing. It's like born in Louisiana, lives in Nashville. Brother Carrie. I mean, come on. The guy did the screen, played a chicken run. So that's what we're gonna talk about today, is your brother.

I'm just kidding. And chicken run. And chicken run. . I'm just kidding. Wayne, thanks so much. This gonna be fun, bud. Yeah, my pleasure. When you talk about true giants and legends in the songwriting community, it's like. I mean, that's seriously, you know, it's, it's almost like we're talking to like George Washington or something today, so we're, your face should be on the $8 bill

[00:47:00] Oh, y'all. So way too. I'll start here. You've been in part of the songwriting community for a really interesting period of time. And I know that there's been a lot of changes in the industry you know, since you have kind of come on the scene. And so I would just like to know in kind of a general sense, or as specific as you want to be, what is different about kind of the song marketplace, let's call it now, versus when you first started getting cuts you know, the, the, even the process of arranging writes or, or pitching songs or getting songs to artists, that kind of thing.

How has that evolved over your time in the industry? Huh? Well The first things that come to mind. First of all, the physicality of pitching. You know, when I first started, which I had, I came to Nashville in 82, you know, and kind of became, kinda got my first writing deal in 84. So, and at that time, [00:48:00] pitching songs and, and publishers that pitch songs, you would physically go to an office with your, well then I was gonna say with your CDs, but actually it would be with your sets at that point, and sit in front of an a and r person, or a producer or, you know, manager, whatever it was that was representing the artist, that was looking for songs.

And you would sit there and play the songs in front of the person, you know now you just send them in an email. You know, the, the pitch process is different. . It's also, I would say at some point, I mean to me, I know they were doing it before this, but I think about around the nineties publishers started catching on that there was the way to get songs cut on records.

The best way was to eliminate a lot of the middlemen and like actually write with the artists, you know? And not that that's a, that's not a nineties [00:49:00] concept, but in terms of publishers in town, I found myself being put with with artists or, you know, that were, you know, trying to get their first record deal.

Yeah. Our head just gotten a first record deal and you're, you're in the room writing with this artist. and they're signed to that publisher, you know, so it became, and, and some of them were great and some of them were not writers , you know, so sometimes you were kind of teaching the fundamentals of writing with this person that you were writing with, you know, and so that, that changed a little bit, you know, that that changed the, the landscape a little bit too, as opposed to, I mean, you still did this where, where writers got in the room and, you know, came up with songs and then you go out and try to find a place for them, you know, or you're writing with an artist specifically in mind, you know, sometimes.

But just another part of the process became getting in the. With [00:50:00] these up and coming new, potentially new artists. Even the way you answered that question is why you've been in the business so long and why you're so, one of the reasons why you're so good is you were so kind about the way you were like, yes, some people were not so great very diplomatic.

That's good. That's right. That's so do you know a way for an individual writer who may be one of those, you know, who is like, listen, you're a great performer but maybe writing is not your skillset yet. Do you, is there a way for people to be able to kind of recognize their own, like self delusion in that way?

Or can they come to that realization themselves in your experience? Or does it take somebody like a publisher or a plugger going, Hey, listen, we're off track here. This is not your, this is not your, Oh, wow. The, you know, yes and no, depending on who you're, you know, it, it, the individual and some people come to the [00:51:00] re realization, either it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm really more of an artist than a writer, or I'm more a writer than an artist, you know, you know, I can sing, okay, but I'm, you know, but I'm really love writing.

You know, some people do come to those realizations once you get into the the machine of it all. I mean, it's why I, I mean, when I first came to town, I thought I wanted to be a, a singer songwriter, you know, a recording artist, you know. And at some point along the way, I, I just was like, well, I, you know, I can sing my own songs.

Okay. You know, but to me I was like, I, I really want to the challenge of, of finding someone else that would wanna sing something I wrote was kind of front in my mind. And then working with other artists, it's like, I don't know if I wanna do all of that, that you have to do to be an artist, cuz it's not, you can't just be an artist.

You, you know, you have to go out and, and do the things that you have to [00:52:00] do to promote yourself and all, you know. And so, I would say in just the way that I kind of had that own realization about myself, there are people that come to that realization of, of what they're pursuing, you know, where they, where they should focus their energies.

And then some, some people have to be hit over the head with it. Yeah. I mean, there are, so I still get, there are some people that send me songs constantly and. And say, I don't understand why I'm not getting any action on this. And it's like, okay, well let's, let's talk about this for a minute. , do you wanna, do you want me to analyze the lyrics, the chords or everything?

Yeah. And, and, and just at the, at the core. But it's like, you know what, you're pitching this same song over and over again, and at some point you maybe just go, okay, maybe this song just isn't good enough. You know? And you know, and sometimes you have that like, look, I know seasoned songwriters [00:53:00] that have track records that have a hard time getting their songs recorded.

You know, it's just the bottom line is it, it's hard . Right. You know, and it takes a lot of patience and perseverance and even still, it may not work, you know? So, and unfortunately, it's not always, doesn't always come down to whether or not a song is good or not, you know? There's, there's a lot more to it sometimes than that, you know?

Can you tell us about some of those other kind of mitigating factors in the process that come along and might, might keep a, a good song from getting, you know, from finding a home? Oh, well, you know, just not right for the particular artist that is, you know, it's not right for their voice. It's not what they're looking for, you know, it doesn't say what they would say.

You know, that's a big phrase, especially when you're, when you're writing with artists, you know, and you're, you know, spitting out stuff that you think, oh, this is a good [00:54:00] line. And it is like, oh, that just doesn't sound like something I would say, you know, it's like, oh, really? We'll, we'll say it anyway.

Right. You know. But so, so if there's any number of things a, a, any, and then something as simple as, well, we've got too many ballots, , you know, so we need more up tempos, or we're looking for a first single, and this is not a first single type song. I mean, there's so many so many number of things that are so many more obstacles than there are open doorways, you know,

So we could live in, we could live in in change the world for a minute. But for the sake, I'll try to narrow it down to one or two questions. So, is it true that Clapton called you when he was recording it and asked you how to play one of the chords? And if so, what was that chord? Or is that a myth?

Is that a rumor? If that happened, it wasn't me, he called . Okay. Okay. Okay. So as far as, as far as I know that he figured it out, , I've never even heard that. So, wow. Well, I've [00:55:00] started that rumor. There you go. I'm gonna start that rumor for you, Wayne. Yeah. . So, yeah, here's what I would say. I would doubt that Eric Clapton would not know how to play any of the chords in that

Yeah. That's what me and Rob were kind of flabbergasted by. But I loved that rhythm, so I was gonna run with it and hear it from the Okay. At at what point, you know when, when you've gotten huge cut after Huge cut after huge cut by iconic artists, after artists after artist, at what point did it ever become, I'm sure it probably never became like normal to be like, oh yeah, Clapton's gonna cut the song, but like at what point did you go, okay, this is a thing that's kind of just happening in my life.

Well, first of all, I'm always surprised and thrilled anytime someone chooses to record something that I've written, you know? So it's never expected. In fact, this is usually the opposite. And, and in regards to change the world, when that first was [00:56:00] floating around it was Gordon Kennedy, one of the co-writers on that song that, that called me and said, you know, it's going to the song, supposedly it's going to be in a, at first it was a Tom Hanks movie, and Paul McCartney's gonna record it.

I mean, that was like, yeah, right. You know, and of course that, and then he called back later and said, no, it's a John Travolta movie, and Eric Clapton and Babyface are gonna do it. And really my response was, well, You know, I'll believe that when I see it, , I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's so, it seems so farfetched for, you know, means, and John Travolta is an angel or something, and Yeah.

Yeah. So, so it really yeah, it, it, it's always It, it, it is always something that you kind of put in its place and then just keep on, you know, because it's either gonna happen or, or not happen. And it's hard to get your [00:57:00] hopes up. I, I learned early on, you know, early in my career, you know, we, we'd record a song and, and somebody would be saying, oh, this is a smash and this is gonna be huge.

And you, you believe it cuz there are these people that are above you, that are, that are, you know, saying this and you go, okay, wow. And you start kind of imagining what this life that this song is gonna have and then it just crash and burns or just never happens. If this does this great, but I'm not going to hang my hat on this thing that somebody said, you know, and just kind of keep my head down and, and just keep pressing forward and doing the work.

And then just hope that that things come from it, you know. Well, I had like four questions on Amy Grant, but I'm gonna try to condense 'em into things I love about. You're writing on the Amy Grant stuff and make it one question. So bear with me cuz this is gonna be a rapid fire. Amy, Amy Grant section.

So wise up, stay for a while, somewhere down the road. Takes a little time. I probably owe [00:58:00] you royalties as many times as I've covered. Takes a little time. Rob will tell you with my friend Estelle. So we've covered it for a ton. Going back to the Heart in Motion album that you wrote, good for me in Every Heartbeat and then go back a little further to lead me on with Dan Huff on Guitar, who is Rob will tell you is probably my number.

I talk about him on the regular. And then Mike and Alan both from Giant in there. How did you first of all connect with Amy Grant? How did that start and how nice is it to play with all the core musicians that you have got to play with on those projects? And then I'm gonna go back a little earlier on one, but for, I'll pause there cuz that's a lot of information and I just dropped a ton of songs that I love, but I'm trying to keep it condensed.

Okay. Which question first? How did I get, how did I up with Amy? That's good. How did that happen? Okay. Well somewhat of a long answer, but I was connected to are you familiar with Blanton Harrell, which was Amy Grant's Management. Okay. Okay. [00:59:00] So I actually speaking of my brother when we were in college, there was a, there was a course in at Belmont College, intro to music business.

And the assignment was you had to interview someone in the music industry that was kind of like your, your final for the semester. And I had done that and I had interviewed Shane Keister, who's a keyboard player. Yeah, there you go. Okay. Yeah. So my brother came to town and he went to Belmont briefly, and he had the same assignment.

and he decided he was going to interview people that were around this song, father's Eyes. Do you know that song? Absolutely. Song. Okay. So he had this lofty idea that he was going to in interview, everyone involved with that song. So he was gonna try to interview Gary Chapman brown Banister, who produced it, and then Amy Grant and all that.

So anyway, he would go over to Blaton Harrell and try to get an interview starting with Mike Blaton. And [01:00:00] he kept getting canceled. He would go over there and, you know, it was probably a nice day. And so they were golfing, you know, . But at one point he just, you know, out of a, a sense of, you know, representing me, he said, can I leave you a tape of my brother?

You know, and, and the the receptionist. Kind of felt sorry for him cuz he'd had to cancel so many times. So she took the tape and then she actually gave it to Mike Blanton. Well, he listened to that tape and loved the songs on it. So he started getting in contact with us and eventually me and I, and I was kind of brought into the Blanton Herald fold, which was, which at that time, the, the artists were Amy Grant, Michael W.

Smith, Kathy Trai Billy Sprague. Yeah. You know, so this, that was this roster. And so through that is kind of how I met Amy and really I was pitching songs and I had pitched [01:01:00] songs love of another kind and Wise Up mm-hmm. . And I got this call one day on my answering machine from Mike Blanton that said, we're going to record both of those songs on Amy's upcoming record.

you know? And so through that, that was, that was when I was just I was not writing with Amy obviously. I was just just pitching songs for and and then, so I got to know her after that. And then, then we started writing together, you know, our, our relationship kind of evolved into a collaboration.

Writing partnership by the time we got to lead me on. That's, that's kind of where we were. And dude, I love that whole album and since you name dropped Shane, I wanna talk on one other song that you and and Mike wrote together. Sure enough. Which is on that same lead Me on album. The bass is so high in the mix.

If you were to like, which other instrumentalists wrote this, I would say it's the bass player, right. . But I love that song. It's so, it's so good. That's I love that [01:02:00] tune. The guitar solo at 2 32 is amazing. So anyway, go. And I had nothing to do with the way that song sounds or anything you, but that was a, a track.

That Shane Keer gave me, him and Mike Brid wrote the music and they, and he, Shane Keer gave, cause it's interesting is I went from a college student interviewing Shane Keer in Pancake Pantry in Nashville for a project. And I still have that tape. And it's, there's a lot of crowd, lot of crowd noise.

Yeah. And, you know, plates clinking and, you know, but going from interviewing him and even on that tape, I said, you know, maybe one day we'll work together. That's cool. Yeah. And he said so. But anyway, flash forward to this album that they're doing with Amy, and he gave me that track and he said, Hey Amy and Brown, they like this track.

And they said they might record it if it had a lyric. That's cool. And it didn't have a melody either. Okay. So, you [01:03:00] know, melody, so it was just chord changes, you know, on a track. And he said, he said, you wanna put something to it? And I said, well, I'll take it and, and play around with it. So I I took it and kind of drove around in my car and came up with a melody and then, and tie it, you know, started writing lyrics to it and I wrote this lyric to it.

And then they played it for Amy and Brown. And then the, the response was that they liked it, but they liked the the second verse better than the first verse. Okay. Lyrically, so can you write, can you rewrite the first verse? And I was like, okay, I'll do, you know, so I went and rewrote a different verse lyrically.

and play it for 'em. And then they're like, like, we like this now we like this better than the second verse. Can you ? You know, so it was that, but you know, it was it, it kind of went through the through all of that process and then it, and it ended up getting on the record in the end. So it all worked out.

But can I do producer that if I can do one quick Michael W. Smith tie in and then I'll try to narrow that [01:04:00] down quickly. The 1985 live v h s I've probably watched more than any concert video ever of him. I've watched it so many times. It's you, Chris Rodriguez, David Huff, mark Hyman, ed Smart, and he does the Hello Atlanta David Huff's out there in those tiny shorts in that Earl Campbell jersey.

So the I've watched that. So many times, and since Kathy Tra and Amy Grit and Gary Chapman are both guests on that, I wanted to try and let you know how many times I've seen y'all play that together. So thank you for that. Yeah. Every time I'd see the name Kitty Moon, I guess she was the producer. I would be sad because that meant it was over.

And then y'all did that. Come on, come on and go for like 10 minutes. So that doesn't make any sense. Come on, come on and go. But you know, I was just like, whatever. I'm jansing around. Michael's that awful jacket. Yeah. I didn't run that

That's perfect. Don't credit him without one. That's awesome. I'm gonna take one here. If [01:05:00] so, going back to thinking through songs and you know, you've written songs that have come into a lot of genres. You've hit, you know, you've hit pop and rock and country and CCM and you know, all these different things when you're.

when you're writing toward a genre, what's something that people might not realize about writing in for one genre versus another? Like when, you know, you're gunning for a pop song, how do you attack it differently than you might, or a country or a ccm track? Other than obvious things like you know, well, if it's a CCM track, you might wanna talk about Jesus or something, but like, you know, but just from the aspect of like the song itself, what's, what are some different things that you're thinking if you're gunning for one genre versus another?

Well, musically, you know, if it's, when it's country music, you can't get too sophisticated, for lack of a better word, you know? So, you know, trying to, as, as I believe it was Harlan Howard that once said about country music. It's, you know three chords in the truth. Mm-hmm. , [01:06:00] you know, And, and that's really true in terms of it, it's really about what you're saying in a country music, I mean, and can't get, obviously you're not gonna throw in a lot of jazz chords in a country song.

You're gonna kind of lose your audience a little bit. So there's that lyrically and, and I will say this, I, when I was kind of venturing into any kind of genre, I would, I would study it to try to figure out what the differences were, you know, and I guess I would notice in, you know, the difference between pop writing versus country writing, for instance, like lyrically or you, you were, you maybe not lean as much on the the metaphorical type writing, you know with a, with a country song per se.

Not that they don't ever use that, but you're kind of like, Just putting it out, you know, just say what you're trying to say. You know, it's not whereas if you get into some sort of pop of, of pop, [01:07:00] especially any, any maybe not mainstream pop, but something that's a little left of center. But in the more pop world, you can get kind of sideway, lyrically kind of not know what they're talking about.

You know? It can be a bit skewed and a little bit more poetic and vague, you know, in a way that vague is not good in a country song, you know? Yeah. If you'd have tried to be vague and boondocks by , it would've been lost. Boondock could not be an abstract Yeah. Approach. No, you've gotta say, I was born and raised in the boondocks.

Yeah. And you get a line, I get a poll. There's no way to vaguely roll that out. No, and I think that's one of the, one of the main things that I discovered about it. If you get too outside of that I mean, country music is kind of deceptively simple, you know? Cuz there's really some there's some great country songs that, that seem simple, but they really have a [01:08:00] pack, a lot of punch, you know, in, in with their lyrical content and the, I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to be simple and say something.

Yeah, that's good. That's, I want that on a t-shirt. That's really good. Yeah, I love that. That's the quote of the day, not that come on, come on and go. Wasn't ranked up there with it , but what, what you just said there, money , the I can tie that in actually to another Little Big Town story. I mean, bring it on home.

Kind of sums that up, what you're trying to say. I mean, that's not a incredibly creative phrase and so it's simple, but it says so much in that song. So I love that. I think that's what you just said is perfect. Thanks. Taking, taking a common phrase, one of my favorite gifts that songwriters give the world is taking a phrase that you've heard a thousand times and making it hit you in a different way.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Making it mean something that either takes on another meaning or adds to some, you know, thing that you've have, you know, the, the turn of the phrase is just one of the most beautiful things about songwriting. Yeah. I mean, and that's, [01:09:00] that's the challenge and the fun of taking the, a mundane phrase and you see the title and you go, oh, this is gonna be one of those.

And then there's a spin on it that just, that, you know, puts that whole in a whole new light and. I love it when you, when you like, you know, look at somebody's new, you know, let's say there's a new playlist comes out and it's got somebody's new singles and you see a title and you know, without hearing it, it clicks with you what they're about to say with it.

like, and you know, I've never thought of that before, but you go, this is about to blow my mind. And then when they actually deliver on that premise that you see coming, it's just like this euphoric like thing. I love it so much. Let me talk for a minute then about the Maple Room. Which is an album that I just absolutely adore.

And it's a, it's a certain head space for me. Like when I want to feel kind of a certain way, I'm gonna throw in the maple room and listen to it front to back. Yeah. It's comfort music for me. What's, oh, Once, I won't forget, you hits from there to all the way through my arm again, part two. It's like, [01:10:00] it's so comfortable.

It's so, I just, I just love that album through and through and it's got some of the most, I mean, like hanging by Thread is just one of those gut wrenching, like, so emotional, you know? But the, but the whole album just has a feel that I just super love and appreciate. And it, and it's a, a kind of, for me, a perfect time capsule of that era and style of like, what I would call songwriters, songs.

Songs that really pop other songwriters Yeah. That they can appreciate, you know. What were your goals with that album? As a guy who was, you know, mostly known up to that point as a guy who was kind of in the credits when you finally go, all right, I'm gonna put out this solo album. What kind of were you, you know, hope, hoping to accomplish with it?

Well, I was, as I mentioned earlier, you know, I'd come to town thinking I wanted to be a singer songwriter. And, and and I didn't really, when I was kind of offered that opportunity, I kind of passed on it because at that point I was like, I, I think I wanna focus on the craft of songwriting and not, and, [01:11:00] and I knew that if, if you went down the artist path, then you're just kinda writing songs for yourself and, and you know, so, so, but, but several years later I still have this thing in me that's like, I wanna do an something of a artistic expression from me personally.

And honestly, I started collecting a lot of songs. It's like, nobody else is going to do these songs, you know? So it kind of started having this batch of songs that really kind of felt like if I was gonna do a record, it would be I'd do this song and I'd do this song. And, and you know, so that's kind of where it started.

And I ha I felt this kind of a burning desire to do it and not really to like, okay, now I'm going to be. A recording artist. I, I really wasn't thinking like what the next record and the next race, like, just doing this, you know? And fortunately my friend Donda Donahue, who ran Rocky Town Records he kind of gave me a, a platform for that.

[01:12:00] And so when we, when I was talking to him about doing the record I said, you know, it's not really a Christian record per se. I was not really interested in doing a, a Christian record by definition, you know? And I said, he came out here to my studio one day and said, let me sit down and play you some songs.

And I'm trying to remember what I actually played him. It might have been. It's me again or something. But, but, and when, and I played it and I was like, are you scared yet? , it's not, you know, because it's not, I mean, rocket Town was a Christian music label, you know, so anyway, but he was, he was all gung-ho with it.

And I said, I really want to, I mean, my goal was to try to make something that would, would be somewhat as much as you can within an era, not be trendy, you know, just be, you know, something that may [01:13:00] be, could last, you know, might, may be still relevant 20 years if you listen to it and you know, it is always the attempt to go listen to it and go.

Well, that still holds up, you know, 20 years later, you know, that's the goal. Yeah. I mean, some of it does and some of it doesn't, but but that was the goal. So you know, it just set off, set off to doing this record, and I was kind of left alone to just do my thing, which is my favorite way to do anything.

And you know, had you know, bit by bit kind of put this collection of songs together, and some of them were with, with people that I had written. The, the song that you mentioned hanging By A Thread was originally written for the, the movie runaway Bride. Oh, really? I know, yeah. And something I did with Gordon Kennedy and we were pitching that song and, and yeah, there's a scene in Runaway Bride where.

I don't know if you saw that movie Joy or Roberts. Is that Richard? Yeah. Julia and Richard [01:14:00] Gear. Yeah. And it's she's at the altar and she runs away , she's a bride, the name of the movie. And but there's a scene where Richard Gear is has been abandoned by, he's walking through the city and he's like a montage and he is looking in storefront windows and things like that.

And there's the song that's supposed to play there, and that's where that song, that's what that was written for. And and then, and it didn't make it in the movie, something else got in there. And in fact, when I, when I used to perform that song, every once in a while I would tell that story and then say, so what you can do is rent the movie and then turn the sound down and play the song.

Play your, that's awesome. And, you know, and kinda see how it was, was supposed to be. But yeah, so, so that was, but that was a song that's like, okay. I mean, we might have even pitched it around actually now that I say that it was after the Maple Room, but Nickel Creek did a version of that song. Yes.

They did their own gorgeous version. Yeah. And then, you know, wrapped up a new Gar Brooks eventually, they were [01:15:00] all originally. On this Maple Room record? Yeah. You know, as songs that I didn't think anybody else would. You mean, you mean Chris Gaines, right? Just kidding. I No, it Wasth Brook. It was both Chris Gaines.

It was . When, when somebody picks up a song of yours and cuts it and let's I think both of these, we can use Nickel Creek and, and Garth you know, I believe, if I recall correctly, nickel Creek's version altered the melody slightly, maybe on the chorus here and there. Yes. And, and Garth's version of wrapped up in You, there's an alternate lyric I believe he says, I love you like a lyric, loves a melody as opposed to a crooner.

How does something like that work for you as a songwriter? Is that a thing where like people tend to just kind of do it and hope you're cool with it? Or like, do they call you up and are you okay if I change the, I feel like a lyric especially is a little more, maybe precious than Yeah, a slight melody change.

How do you, how does that kind of stuff work? And especially a lyric that changes it to the word lyric , it's like not nice job drawing some attention to it. . That's a, I would say, yeah, my my [01:16:00] snarky comment about that , the, the lyrically or melo me melodically with anything is, is that it's not a suggestion.

Okay. So it's the way, you know, it's like, it's, it's written a certain way because that's kind of how you envision it as a writer. So anytime someone takes it and, and changes it to quote, maybe they're taking it just to make it their own or something, you know. But especially when, I mean, in either of those cases that wasn't run by any, wasn't run by me or anything, it's like it just.

The record came out and it's like, oh, they changed that, you know, and in the case of the wrapped up with you with, with Garth, he changed those lyrics, a few of those things, and a few melodic things here and there. And cuz that, cuz we went over and sang background vocals on that track, me and Gordon, I think.

And that was the first time I heard, you know, I, I had to ask for a lyric sheet. . [01:17:00] And and so it was, I mean, to me, you know, why he changed it is maybe he felt like, okay, his audience doesn't know what a crooner is, you know, and so he is gonna change it to something, you know? It, it changed the meaning for, for me.

Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Whenever I perform it, I sing. As I say, the way God intended . But but at the same time, jokingly say I was a little bit like, I don't know, a little bit taken by the, the fact that it was cha changed and then until I got the first royalty check Sure. , ok, well maybe this is ok. I love it so much.

You know, you know, that's, I mean, cause really, I mean, at the end of the day, it's like, I, I don't, I can't take myself so seriously that I, I have all of the, you know, it's like perfect the way I turned it in, you know, and you know, it, it was, [01:18:00] it was fine and he, and he did it the way that he felt comfortable doing it.

And I would say this, had he called me and said, can I do this? I probably would've said, sure, yeah. You know although there have been times when someone has called me about specific songs that they wanted to change something. There was a song actually that Garth wanted to record and he wanted to change the the lyric.

And it was a song that was so personal to me that I said, no, wow, wow. It needs, it needs to be done this way. And it has still not been cut to this day. Wow. Wow. But, but it was like, ah, I just can't, it, it, this song means a certain thing to me and I'm just fine with just me singing it here every once in a while.

And if I'm the only one that ever does it, you know, so, so it's, it's on a song by song basis. That's cool. I like, I like that story. The one thing I'll touch on before we completely move away from the Maple Room is you talked about how [01:19:00] you wanted it to be different, and I think that's one of the things that I personally like about it, is it is different mm-hmm.

than anything else that, that was coming out around that time. It's not, it's not cookie cutter, you know, it's, it's different. It's like it lives in its own ecosystem. Yeah. It's, it's wonderful. So thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for, for living in that. Yeah. Thank you. And then, so I still have some Smitty questions I gotta ask the couple, can't get away from it.

I'm sorry. I'd love this guy. So I got a couple Michael W. Smith tie-ins here real quick. So change your World, not Change the World, change Your World Album. You got somewhere somehow with him and Amy, which I love. David Foster helps a little on that. How does, now how does your connection with David Foster work?

Are y'all in the same room together? Are y'all separate? Are y'all each contributing? No, I, I had no contact with David Foster. Okay. That would. , that was through Michael, which happens a lot when you're just the writer. , I get it. . So all of these things [01:20:00] happen, you know, with artist connections and things like that.

And so, and, and the, and the relationship writing relationship between me and Michael was usually we were, we were never in the same room writing. Okay. You know, he usually, with the exception of, I would, with the exception of one song, I think usually he had written a piece of music and had the melody or, you know, some form of the melody.

And he would give it to me and I would take it and I would go away and I would write a lyric. Okay. And I'd come back to him and go, here's what I got. usually after he had called me several times going, are you done yet, ? No, I'm not. And, and well, can you? And he's like, can you play me what you have so far?

And I, and I didn't like, I was like, no, I'm not gonna play you to have the whole thing, because I didn't want someone to, I didn't wanna make comments on a half baked Yeah. Idea. That's great. I love that. So, so, yeah. [01:21:00] So, so, and I would go and play him what I had and then he. Record it, you know, and, and kind of that's the way our relationship will work.

Well, there's bangers upon bangers on that album. I mean, picture perfect, colorblind written with my hero going to guitar again. Mr. Huff, who we've talked about, cross gold give it away. That whole thing is just packed full of goodness. So I could talk about that forever, but we'll just say great job there.

Good, good job. Nice job success. And then we'll go backwards One project, because I have a question about it. Go west Young man. I mean, why not love Crusade Place in this world for you? Deo banger, banger banger, banger banger on seed De. So did you contribute the

inco part that is on there? I don't think so. . Not while you were conscious anyway. No, that, that was not written on a lyric sheet. I'm trying to remember. That was my, you know, [01:22:00] that whole, the, the feel of that song, which kind of had this tribal kind of thing and, you know, it was probably inspired by something, I don't know.

I don't know the timeline, but, you know, the, what was the Michael Jackson? Mama say Mamas, you know, there's a chance that it was inspired. I don't remember if the came first, you know, but those kinds of things, you know, and it's like, oh. Chanting is in style. Let's do that. You know, it could have been something like that, but No, I, I didn't that was not written in the lyric.

That lyric actually translates to Come on. Come on and go. Come on, come on. All of them. Do all of them do it. Walk down to coming. Yeah. One last thing and then I'll try to stay away from Smitty, but he won't. I won't him and Amy, grant, I'll keep back too. But secret ambition. Come on. That's, that is a wonderful song with the weirdest video.

I'm just . No, I love the Jesus [01:23:00] clips, but his dancing, it has got to come on and go as much as you contributed to him lyrically, could you not have said, Michael, you don't need to do this every 10 seconds in the video. And I was not involved in any of No. Stay in your lane. Right. Just. Yeah, this, the, the subtitle of this interview is Wayne Disavows himself of several Michael w Smith's actions.

That's right. . I contributed plenty of stuff that is probably you know, head, head bowed in shame kind of moments. But but to, to speak to secret ambition as an example of kind of the way we wrote. You know, Michael had this song idea and he was singing secret Ambition in the, in the dummy lyric that he sing, you know, and it sang really well.

So then my, my job, which, which a lot of times I would do this, if he sent something and he was singing [01:24:00]gummy lyrics and they sounded good, you know, to the ear, I would, I would go, what can. Can I make that? What does that that mean? Mm-hmm. , you know, that was the case with secret ambition, like, what can that mean?

And I actually got with Amy, we wrote that lyric together. You know, I had bits and pieces of it, but, but that was inspired. The lyric was inspired by Michael Sings. Word, this title, secret ambition. That's cool. Okay. I wanna get your thoughts if it's, I, I really have no idea how, how you're going to feel about this, so but I, I wanna talk about the Mrs.

Doubtfire musical. Yeah, I know it's been a rollercoaster and I know it's been a pretty extreme one, and a lot of people probably because of the timeline of things, may not even know that it exists outside of, you know, outside of New York and, and maybe you know, maybe England now you just got back from a month in England running performances there.

But it's like, so to give the people a kind of an idea after a long time of pre-production you know, and then it looks like this. It Broadway previews start in like March of 2020 which [01:25:00] should ring bells immediately. March, 2020. What happened then? Yeah, . And so everything shuts down. It finally attempts to reopen in April of this year, only to close after like 80 something performances right.

In May. Yes, it actually closed and opened another time. Oh, it did? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Three times total. So, and then now you've just come back from a, a month long run in Manchester. Just tell us about the whole, the whole drama of the Mrs. Doubtfire, the musical, you know, the hits and misses of the whole thing and, and kind of how you're feeling about that whole experience at this point.

Yeah. Well, you're right. I mean, a rollercoaster is definitely what it was, you know, especially because we had had another Broadway show in 2015 called Something Rotten. Yeah. And and that was, you know, a great experience. And it ran for just under two years. And then we had a national tour and and then another tour, you know, so that was my only [01:26:00] experience with the Broadway theater at that point.

So when we went into doing Mrs. Doubtfire, which was, you know, this huge title and all, and kind of felt like, oh, this is kind of like a, you know, a sure fire, you know, there's a part of it. You feel like it's just kind of a, a sure, sure thing, you know? Yeah. And so we did an, we, we had written this same team, me and my brother and John O'Farrell had, who had written something rotten.

We had written this version of Mrs. Doubtfire and it played out of town in Seattle in 2019. and had a very successful run in Seattle. It, it broke box office records there. And you know, so it was like, and we still, as you do with Outta town tryouts, you, you put it on its feet and then you learn from it, and then you go away and you make tweaks, you know, and you, you work towards making it better.

So that's what we were doing. It ran in the fall of like through Thanksgiving, through the end of the year into new [01:27:00] Year's Day or new in Seattle. And then we were moving into New York and we, in February, we went into rehearsals in New York. February, 2020. Still rewriting, doing everything, you know.

And so we went through the rehearsal stage and we moved into the theater, and then the preview period started. And and which for if you don't know or for anyone that don't know, is a preview period in theater is where you have a ticket buying audience that's coming to see the show every night, but you're making changes during the day.

Oh, every day. Yeah. You're tweaking. So that's what we were doing. And, and so three shows into previews is when COVID hit New York and all of Broadway shut down. So instantly overnight, there was a whole industry that was out of work. Because also the way theater works and all of these people that have shows running, you know, your directors, music directors, producers, writers, all of these, [01:28:00] these creative elements of a show.

The way the pay works is you get paid weekly based on the box office numbers of your show. So not, it's not like, oh, every few months you get a check. It's weekly, as long as, so these people live, you know, on that income stream. It's like getting your paycheck every week, you know, all of that shut down overnight, you know?

So so anyway, we when I came back home and it sat the show, the set in the theater, everything sat that way for 19 months. Holy cow. Yeah. And we came back to New York and it's finally like, okay, I think, you know, theater's gonna open back up. And so we had a a long preview period for this one.

We had the, we had a month long rehearsal. . And then we went into the preview period and it was six weeks. Normally it's about four. And so, and we continued to tweak and [01:29:00] write, but the thing is from the time that covid shut down everything until everything reopened, which was almost, almost two years the world changed too.

There were a lot of things that were different when you come back. And so you know, kind of navigating through all of that as well as you have a show that was kind of limping back into place. And, and from a business standpoint, all of marketing dollars had been put into that initial launch. You know, and the first, when it first came into New York in that in 2020, it had, the show had like 10 million in advanced sales.

So, I mean, it was, it was really set up great when Covid hit. The producers had to give all that money back to the, you know, sale. So there's a lot of the business side of the way, you know, all that works that is that we don't really kind of realize what all up against, but the amount of, you know, [01:30:00] you're advancing a show like a year ahead, you know, putting marketing dollars just to get it to a point to where you've got advanced sales for the first run.

So, so it took that hit. So anyway, we, we opened up in again just before Thanksgiving of what would that have been? 2021 and it got to opening night. In this new world testing three, three times a week, you know, everything was, everything was, was safe all through the run. We did this opening night and then there was an opening night party, which still you had to be cleared, you know, you had to have been tested to get into the party, you know, and all that.

But the next day some Covid cases started showing, oh my goodness. And I dunno if it was cause of that or it was also what was happening was the Omicron variant Yeah. Was moving in. So the show had to close the second time, right before, like a week or two, before Christmas. And [01:31:00] Christmas is peak Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's peak time for for Broadway.

And in a lot of shows they stock up with their sales from Christmas from the holidays because even on a good. And a good healthy time in theater. January and February are your dead months, you know, so you, you hope, your hope is you build up your your nest egg, you know, holidays and then you, you can get through the January, February, get to spring break, and then you're kind of back in and then it flag day in June, it's just gonna blow up.

Oh, yeah. Oh, Arbor Day, forget about it. Everybody comes out for Arbor Day. . Yeah. But so we had to close before Christmas and so then we opened back up in the spring of 2022 and, you know, all the marketing dollars had been spent, new shows were coming out. We were no longer a new show, but we weren't an old show, you know?

Right. And you're new in terms of it's newer, but it's been around for but not out. Yeah, it's been around but not out, so [01:32:00] it's not Right. And all the momentum that had been gained, you know, the first time around was gone. So it was, it was up and down and everybody was optimistic, you know, trying to like, Given their best.

All the actors were hung with it for the whole time, you know, so but eventually they just, they just had to call it, you know, and so we took it to England to open it over there. And we just did an out of town in Manchester. It ran for, for, it had a four week run, which is what it, which was the plan.

And it did great. Good over there. It, it exceeded expectations and projections. It was gonna be, and it was received well, the audience received it well, the critics received it well. All of that kind of stuff. So it's, it's kind of finding it's post covid legs and then it'll go into London sometime next year into the West End, you know?

Something rotten was fantastic. I I really [01:33:00] enjoyed the, the music in it for sure. And I know that's something that you did write with Carrie. I love right hand man songs so good, so Oh really? Props there on that. And we'll try to, we'll throw one or two more at you and then we'll let you enjoy your day.

But one other thing I gotta talk on real quick is coming from somewhere else, the Kennedy Kirkpatrick, Madera and Sprague Project. I love that the gang vocals meet the guitar sounds so good. And that same cruise version of place in this world's really nice. I really like that version. It's completely different from the original.

So those of y'all that are out there list, not completely, but production-wise, you're not gonna have, it's different. So tell the the listener before, don't go in expecting to hear that. But it's, it's wonderful. I love it so much. So, and this has been a lot of fun, Wayne, you don't understand how great this has been.

Thank you. Such to spend time with us. We're Oh yeah, my pleasure. We kick out over this stuff, as you can tell. We love it. So, yeah. I think I've got one more. We have, we have one question and lemme ask everyone, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you one more before for, for the writers out there listening or, [01:34:00] or even for the aspiring writers out there listening what would you tell a, a writer out there?

Or what is something that you would tell a writer out there who like knows deep down they have the goods, right? They're like, I can write, I can write great songs. And not just, you know, I've heard like, publishers don't wanna know if you can write a great song. They wanna know if you can write a hundred great songs.

Right? Like that kind of idea. So you, you know, somebody out there listening, going, I, that's me. I know I have that. I don't have a way into the industry. I don't have a connection. I don't know anybody. What is their step, you know, what would you say to them? What street corner do you need to hang out on?

Whose door do you need to knock on? You know, or what convention do you need to go to? What, you know, for somebody who's like, I really believe in my soul, I can make it in this industry, what would you tell them? Wow. Well, that's, that's a hard, that's a hard thing to answer because it's, you know, there's a, there's a million different ways.

Sure. It's not one size [01:35:00] fits all, obviously. Yeah. And all I can can speak to is, is what worked for me, you know? And which is, I would say 85, 90% of, of this is who you know, or being in the right place at the right time, you know, the networking of it. And that requires being in a place where it is going on, you know?

So I, I say that cautiously because my, my my, my blanket answer is, well, you need to be in, in a songwriting town. , you know, you need to be in Nashville or you need to be in LA or New York, you know, and someplace where the, where you can bump into people that are doing it, you know, where you can network in a way where you can get yourself in front of people.

Whether it's, even if you're, you know, playing in clubs or what you know, or whatever it is putting yourself out there. The difference between putting yourself out there in a [01:36:00] place where there are cords of people within an industry versus putting yourself out there in a place where it's not, you know, it, it's not to say that it can't be done, but just increasing your odds, you know, is part, is part of it.

And so in terms of, of that. It's hard. It's like, you know, you can't just go, oh, we'll, coherent and go talk to this person, and then they'll, you know, and go get a song on a record or so, you know, it's just there's no set way to do it except to, you know, there, there are questions you ask yourself, like, how bad do you want it?

And what are, what are you willing to do to get it within, you know, , within legal, you know? And but the broader thing with it, I was just talking with somebody yesterday who to was telling me that they, they write poetry or so, you know, and how can I get, you know, to the next step, you know? And I, I tell him what I tell everybody.

It's like, first of all, you you need to just [01:37:00] keep doing it and. What I can't stress enough to people, especially when I talk to kids, is to be a finisher because it's really, I important to get an habit of what we're setting out to do is to complete get, get the sense of, of completing things.

Because when you get, when you start something, it's sparkly anew and it's exciting. And the middle is really hard. Yeah. And when you get to the middle, it's like, ah, I'm sick of this. And then you, you can be like the the, you know, squirrel, you know, oh, here's a new shiny thing and this is more exciting now.

So I'm gonna start that. And then before you know it, you hit the middle of that and it's really hard again. And you, if you get in the habit of just starting new things and not ever finishing things, That's a bad habit to get into. And there's such a sense of a feeling of accomplishment within yourself if you finish [01:38:00] things that you started finish more things than not, you know, that you started.

And, and I think that feeds into, you know, a certain type of work ethic. And then also having a body of work so that when you are in front of someone or have the opportunity to present things that you've done, you have a body of work on some level, you know, and that, that's not exactly the answer to the question that you're asking, but, but it's part of it, I think.

And you know and, and as far as. Getting it to the right people. It's like the difference between kind of staying in your little bubble in your room or whatever and writing songs or, you know, recording songs versus getting them out into the public. And the, the way it is now versus when I first was starting it, you know, we have all of these avenues, YouTube and you know, other forms of [01:39:00] social media where, where you can get your stuff out.

And that is an incredible tool and I know, I mean, we do it when we're looking for someone to like be in a show that we're doing, you know, a theater show. You go to YouTube and start looking at the talent out there and you can be discovered on places like that. People in the industry are going. To those kind of places and seeing what's out there.

So in a lot of ways it, it, it's more competitive because there, because everybody's out there doing it, but it is a way. To and to expose what you're doing to a large audience. And the challenge is in how can I make myself stand out on that platform? Yeah. All people to, you know, and just figuring out creative ways to make that happen.

And I don't know what that is. . Yeah. Well this has been great. Oh man. Just go, go ahead and get us the, shoot us a message with Smitty and Amy, grant and Dan Huff's information and we'll just follow up with [01:40:00] them after. We'll just do part two with them. , continue on. Yeah, we'll just, we'll ask Smitty the hard questions straight to his face.

That's right. . No, seriously, Wayne, this has been awesome. So you're on tour, you go into a gas station, either you're doing. Broadway show, or you're doing a solo tour or you're on tour with a band, you go into a gas station. What is your gas station snack? Food of choice. And while you're thinking of your answer, I'll tell you mine, I'd get a Three Musketeers bar.

When I was growing up, my mom would say, you could have any candy bar you want. And it's the most ounces and they're all the same price. So I get a three Musketeers bar. What is your gas station snack? Food of choice? Huh? It depends on how long into the trip, but I would say I like Snickers. Okay. And I like a, a spicy slim gym.

Okay. Okay. There we go. I can respect that. I mix it up. That's the Frog Valley. That's good stuff. Oh, that's good. Good stuff. Seriously, Wayne, this has been a lot of fun and we'll keep you posted on when we release it, but we appreciate you spending some time with us. We [01:41:00] hope you've enjoyed. my, yes, I did. I, I appreciate your interest.

Yeah. And happy to be a part of it. Honored. Seriously. It's been great. It's like sitting, sitting, listening to Yoda for an hour. , it's like just, oh my God. man. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks, man. Okay, thanks. Nice meeting you guys. Same here. Appreciate it. This is the Great Song Podcast.

And that was Wayne Kirkpatrick closing out season 10 of the Great Song Podcast Man. Literally cannot believe that happened. We gotta give a shout out to Dave Barnes for helping us make that connection. Yeah, thanks Dave. He was just casually like, you want wink Patrick on the show? Well, yeah. I ran into da, I shot David text.

I was like, Hey, I'm around the corner eating dinner with some friends. And he's like, oh. He's like, I'll come say hey. And he like walked around the corner and came over and said, Hey. And he's like, I was just hanging out with Wayne Kirkpatrick. He's like, you guys should hang out with him. I'm like, yes, please.

Okay. And so, no big deal. Thank you Dave for [01:42:00] that. Yeah. So man, it's been such a fun, such a fun ride. The last five years had just been so much fun putting this show together and and 10 seasons into it. We are still as excited to do this every time as we were the very first time that we did it. And we're not stopping in 11 guys.

We've got, we have so many things in store, some that we've already done. Yeah. That we cannot wait to get out. And we'll be back before you know it. Y'all have a great holiday season. Yep. Merry Christmas. I'm not afraid to say that. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Yeah. Merry whatever your thing is.

Also, if you do a different thing, we're glad for that. Yeah. Good, good, good for you. But, and we'll see you in February. February, we're gonna take a few weeks off in between seasons and recharge and and be ready to back for season 11 to give you just the, I I'll go ahead and say it. It's gonna be the greatest single season that we've ever had.

Season 11 count on it. Apparently we've got Amy Grant on the line. I don't know. I don't have any grant yet, but we do have some daisies guys. We've got a bunch in the can already that have already been recorded interview wise, [01:43:00] and we got some stuff on deck that we cannot wait to share. So we are not, we're not letting down the momentum.

Thank y'all for hanging out with us. Let's go season 10. Bring your friends. Tell your friends. That's the best Christmas gift you can give us. Yeah. Is have some people like send us a message that just say, I listen. Yeah. Thanks for this. Right? Like, that's amazing. Yes. That is Christmas gift. Among Christmas gifts.

Yes. And then bring a friend to next year's festivities. That's right. Yeah. Tell 'em Something. I don't know. . Alright. We're very articulate here. That's it. That's, we're like, we're the best ever. Tell 'em something, . All right. We'll see you guys over on season 11. Until then, I'm Rob. I'm J.P. Go listen to some music.